tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post222347838160223643..comments2024-03-23T12:05:13.464-07:00Comments on Ideas: The Furnace of Akhnai: Story and PuzzleDavid Friedmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-6709304717372084302013-09-07T11:22:25.890-07:002013-09-07T11:22:25.890-07:00Do not attempt to give a logical answer to an illo...Do not attempt to give a logical answer to an illogical situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-8856222471585978082013-07-09T10:33:51.501-07:002013-07-09T10:33:51.501-07:00Fiction is fiction -- the Temple was gone and mira...Fiction is fiction -- the Temple was gone and miracles ceased to exist -- therefore this is a tale that is told to prove a point. Truth be known -- did this really happen? Could it occur today? Very doubtful. Did it happen then? Another bedtime story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-35476968554568336352011-03-25T18:38:33.366-07:002011-03-25T18:38:33.366-07:00I have loved this story ever since I first read it...I have loved this story ever since I first read it (horrors) 40-odd years ago. Writing an article about miracles I thought I'd bring it up there, and in looking commentary on it came across this blog (obviously) -- but there is a truly brilliant article by Daniel Greenwood here:<br />http://people.hofstra.edu/daniel_j_greenwood/html/Akhnai.htm<br />that pulls every thread out of it you can imagine (and quite a few I couldn't have). Not a quick read, but wonderfully rewarding, and hugely recommended.<br /><br />Thanks for linking to the online Talmud translation... at last the authoritative source!<br /><br />Peter BPeter Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-26763714974315908582010-07-28T10:03:00.397-07:002010-07-28T10:03:00.397-07:00Izgad's point is a good one. Contemporary Ort...Izgad's point is a good one. Contemporary Orthodoxy is very ossified; it is difficult if not impossible to change and existing law.<br /><br />But this story (and a few others) from the Talmud reflect the flexibility and dynamism of the system, at least at that time. It shows that there was actually a common law system of law in place; there was respect for tradition and authority, but new rules could be made and old rules could be changed.<br /><br />The earliest example of this common-law approach actually comes from the Torah itself, in the two stories about the Daughters of Zelophechad in the Book of Numbers. I have blogged about the legal aspects of those stories <a href="http://www.threejews.net/2009/07/halachic-argument-for-evolving-halacha.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.threejews.net/2008/07/daugters-of-zelophehad-evolving-halacha.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Brucehttp://www.threejews.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-46374390040091480682010-07-28T06:44:26.819-07:002010-07-28T06:44:26.819-07:00Dr. Friedman
I am not certain as to how importan...Dr. Friedman <br /><br />I am not certain as to how important the downturn in the Babylonian Academy’s power. (Keep in mind that there was no sudden collapse, but a decline that starts somewhere around the tenth century. The Academy continues to exist for centuries afterwards.) Rabbinic Judaism successfully managed to disassociate itself from the Karaites. The move is connected by most scholars to Saadiah Gaon in the tenth century. <br /><br />Anonymous<br /><br />Mythology does not have to be a matter of believing or not believing. It can simply be a way of expressing values. As mythologies go, this is a good one to have; it is a rejection of supernatural authority. We no longer care if someone can perform miracles. The story goes so far as to say that human beings can overrule God. If one is going to try building a humanist religion, this is a good place to start.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-53377401127248751492010-07-27T23:33:48.103-07:002010-07-27T23:33:48.103-07:00And if Jewish people stop using a bunch of fairy t...And if Jewish people stop using a bunch of fairy tales as the foundation for their law and politics, they might avoid being killed by Iranian A-bomb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-40824578625384628352010-07-26T11:40:41.366-07:002010-07-26T11:40:41.366-07:00Izgad mentions later examples of mutually orthodox...Izgad mentions later examples of mutually orthodox but differing schools of Jewish law. I believe those are after not only the end of the Sanhedrin but the loss of effective control over the law by the Babylonian academies--at a point at which there was no way of establishing legal uniformity.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-87832043439056073692010-07-26T11:19:09.186-07:002010-07-26T11:19:09.186-07:00In terms of Beit Shammai being suppressed, we see ...In terms of Beit Shammai being suppressed, we see for example Rabbi Tarfon being castigated in Brachot for following the dictates of Beit Shammai in saying the Shma prayer. That being said Beit Shammai is generally used as an example of rabbinic inclusiveness since regardless of whether rabbinic Judaism follows Beit Shammai in practice, their opinions are still accepted as legitimate in the Talmud as opposed to say the Sadducees.<br />Traditional Judaism has its version of different schools accepting the validity of each other. For example Ashkenazic and Sephardi halachic traditions are very different but still accept the validity of the other. Lithuanian and Hasidic schools of thought, despite their strong opposition to each other in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, now accept the other.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-59892280156317170622010-07-26T11:12:39.986-07:002010-07-26T11:12:39.986-07:00I actually did a post on this story a few years ag...I actually did a post on this story a few years ago (http://izgad.blogspot.com/2007/09/hogwarts-school-of-force-studies-and.html). My main interest in it is the implied opposition to charismatic leaders and their claims to performing miracles. Regardless of whether Rabbi Eliezer could perform miracles, the mere proposition that any individual could do so is something so dangerous for established religious authority that it has to be repressed.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-90752239579034502052010-07-25T19:59:38.891-07:002010-07-25T19:59:38.891-07:00It seems to me that it would be harder to sustain ...It seems to me that it would be harder to sustain a situation in which one school commanded a clear majority of support, and with only two schools one is likely to be bigger than the other. Perhaps there's a certain balance of power among the Sunni schools that has contributed to their better preservation.dWjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12072494989829344049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-74938676020218226892010-07-24T20:23:14.477-07:002010-07-24T20:23:14.477-07:00I'm sorry; I totally missed your link for reas...I'm sorry; I totally missed your link for reasons that elude me. Didn't mean to be redundant.<br /><br />I'm not an expert either -- have studied some of these passages in classes and with my rabbi, but I'm just a curious layperson.<br /><br />MonicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-23354046712317674042010-07-24T19:32:43.423-07:002010-07-24T19:32:43.423-07:001. I did link to the source, although only fairly ...1. I did link to the source, although only fairly far down in the post. The notes in the source explain about falling on his face, but I didn't want to go into that much detail in the post.<br /><br />2. I'm pretty sure that the school of Shammai was in fact suppressed. At least, the account I've seen is something like "for four generations, the two schools disagreed in peace, with members of each willing to eat in the house of the other and marry their daughters." The implication I got was that that situation eventually changed.<br /><br />But I could be wrong--I'm certainly not an expert.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-80916866046016835652010-07-24T19:28:26.012-07:002010-07-24T19:28:26.012-07:00(This is Bava Metzia 59b, for anyone else who want...(This is Bava Metzia 59b, for anyone else who wants to read the source.)<br /><br />"Falling on his face" refers to a section of individual, petitionary prayer (called tachanun) at the end of the Amidah (main prayer of the service). This section is omitted on certain days, including the new moon.<br /><br />The interpretation I learned of this part, which I find in later commentaries but not in the gemara itself (the part of the talmud you're quoting), is that he prayed to God about his unhappiness and God took action, not that he directly prayed for any ill to fall to Gamliel. (Yes, that's some challenging theology.)<br /><br />As you note, the houses of Hillel and Shammai disagreed with each other, but they generally coexisted peacefully. I'm not sure this was surpression of Shammai rather than surpression of a beligerent sage. Elsewhere in talmud (I think in Eruvim but I can't find it now) we're told that while they disagreed they got along, intermarried with each other, ate in each others' homes (even though one of the things they disagreed<br />about was kashrut), etc.<br /><br />I hope this helps a little.<br /><br />(Blogger doesn't seem to want to let me provide OpenID or a name/URL, so just in case this comes through as anonymous, this is Monica: http://cellio.livejournal.com)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com