tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post7335888266822994650..comments2024-03-23T12:05:13.464-07:00Comments on Ideas: Two Libertarian FamiliesDavid Friedmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-11594128067307856332012-12-03T15:32:58.672-08:002012-12-03T15:32:58.672-08:00Thanks for this post, DDF. I've longed for so...Thanks for this post, DDF. I've longed for sometime to see you and your wife write a book on unschooling. We came to it rather late in the game, and would have treasured such an account.Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-17085169761715000052012-12-01T11:15:09.243-08:002012-12-01T11:15:09.243-08:00"You might be an economist if you refuse to s..."You might be an economist if you refuse to sell your children . . . because they might be worth more later." -----Yoram BaumanJohn Fasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11770384424027460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-47881712949069711032012-11-29T17:14:23.129-08:002012-11-29T17:14:23.129-08:00While we are atypical, I'm not sure it was in ...While we are atypical, I'm not sure it was in anything close to those terms.* I can't remember, in my childhood, doing a lot of "studying <i>hard</i>" - studying wasn't hard, it was fun, which was why I did it. Math was a game, and when it stopped being a game I stopped doing it until I actually needed it (for the SAT, at which point I studied up because, well, I wanted to get into a good school. My real actions had real consequences.) <br /><br />I think to some extent, having to optimize your decisions subject to constraints is just part of life, and I'm not sure how you can really avoid it. Even in the most peaceful, idyllic setting, you have a <i>time</i> constraint. I can't make marmalade with Mom and read books and play harp all at <i>once,</i> no matter how much I might like to. It's a much less harsh constraint than many real-world ones... but I still believe the concept of trade-offs is present.<br /><br />As far as reining in goes, a lot of actions have real short-term consequences. In those cases, our parents would warn us we were making mistakes (if they noticed) - and if we insisted on doing it anyway (and no one else was harmed by the mistake), they let us, and we dealt with the consequences and figured out that hey, that really <i>was</i> a bad idea. (Or, occasionally, wasn't. I genuinely <i>am</i> fine without a coat in colder weather than the rest of my family, to pick a minor example.) <br /><br />So... cool as your system sounds (at least the part with no allowance and chores instead - seriously, I would have liked that), I don't really feel as if I didn't have to make decisions... or, in most ways, as if I wasn't prepared for the real world. (Though to be fair, the closest I've gotten to the real world is college, and college is a step <i>down</i> in personal responsibility from home. I mean, you have to persuade them to let you cook your own meals! So we'll see if I still feel that way in a couple years, when I'm out.)<br /><br />*I'm pretty sure we are atypical in the sense that we're unusually fond of logic, and we're rules-followers by nature; given a rule I don't like, my instinct is to try to change it rather than disobey, and given a good reason for that rule, my instinct is to accept it unless I can come up with a better. That probably <i>did</i> make my parents' lives a lot easier, but I don't think it's that wildly uncommon.<br /><br />Oh, and I never did teenage rebellion. But I think that was a result of my parents' methods, rather than a lucky chance that helped them work.Rebecca Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-83700193052230463132012-11-29T13:02:46.779-08:002012-11-29T13:02:46.779-08:00There were times when I wished my family operated ...There were times when I wished my family operated more communally. When the driveway and sidewalk would get covered in snow, my mother would offer each boy different wages based on his perceived physical strength. At its most extreme, one boy might earn $14 an hour and the other $8 an hour. I was somewhat offended by this, especially since I was willing to do it for free. My brothers and I had plenty of time on our hands, and our parents had already given us so many things in life. I felt that we were a family and that it was not too much to ask these strong boys to shovel snow without enticing them with money. The impression that my parents weren't necessarily swimming in money added to the sense of injustice. But there was no dignity in doing it for free when your brother was making $12 an hour.<br /><br />On another note, I do remember you despite being about 4 years old at the time. I particularly remember the foam swords you made for my brothers and I. Also a large lego set. I have fond memories of both gifts. Though I most clearly remember talking to Bill and then hearing you tell Bill that you had to leave for California.<br /><br />-Roger Lott (Gertrud's son)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17947794752021845368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-28986918282606515732012-11-29T13:02:12.061-08:002012-11-29T13:02:12.061-08:00> although both families share similar views of...> although both families share similar views of economics and both methods seem to have worked.<br /><br />Interesting examples but given the research on heredity and non-shared environment, how could you know if it didn't work?gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-70112714692665541072012-11-29T11:17:44.385-08:002012-11-29T11:17:44.385-08:00jimbino,
Why do you resent someone who made their...jimbino,<br /><br />Why do you resent someone who made their own way and had a good life? Just because Prof Friedman didn't do a few years in the coal mine doesn't make his choice of parenting styles an affront to decency.<br /><br />"I also don't "need the money" but, unlike you, apparently, I am sensitive to the plight of those who do."<br /><br />What do you want, a Nobel Peace Prize? Who cares what you are "sensitive" to (whatever that means)? I give money to Chinese orphans. That's my business. Other people go their whole lives without thinking about Chinese orphans. Let them direct their own lives.<br /><br />And can he crap about his kids being "subsidized" at the "expense" of others. If Prof Friedman makes more than $60,000 a year (combined household income) he's paying for others, not vice versa.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451660326673235862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-23288358579964239672012-11-29T11:09:10.457-08:002012-11-29T11:09:10.457-08:00Gertrude:
I wouldn't describe it as wanting t...Gertrude:<br /><br />I wouldn't describe it as wanting to study hard, but as enjoying doing things that were also educational--including computer games not designed to be educational. The obvious example is reading. I suspect a good deal of my ability to write came from reading a book or two a day during summer vacation--largely Agatha Christie and the like. When my daughter was applying to college, we were told by the admissions person at one school that what blew them away was the list she provided of four hundred books she had read.<br /><br />For a less obvious example, they got game boys with Polemon cartridges at one point and spent a lot of time for the next year or so playing the game. In one sense it was a silly game--that world doesn't really exist. But learning how to find your way around a world you are dropped into and function in it is a useful skill--and they put far more time and energy into doing so for fun than kids normally put into classes they are assigned.<br /><br />I don't know that our approach would work for all kids, but I think it might work better for more than you expect. Of course, your approach works too. I can't blame the fact that your kids are too tall--especially the one you named prophetically--on child rearing, since they were stuck with their parents' genes.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-88548148473897716802012-11-29T05:05:13.370-08:002012-11-29T05:05:13.370-08:00Hi, David! Glad you found my post interesting. We...Hi, David! Glad you found my post interesting. Well, I think the reason why you might have gotten away with your kind of child rearing (of course my way is generally superior!) is that you simply happened to have atypical kids. <br /><br />They might not have needed as much reining in and were so interested in intellectual pursuits that they wanted to study hard anyway. <br /><br />Ours have been somewhat of risk takers and not always so consistent at choosing intellectual pursuits. They needed a bit more reining in and learning the tradeoffs to be faced in life. Who knows, they might have thought they could go hiking for a profession if they had not been steered into understanding the value of money. <br /><br />Actually, even in the most wonderful of libertarian worlds, even if material possessions are plentiful, life is going to present itself with tradeoffs. So I think making kids used to optimize their decisions subject to constraints - monetary or otherwise in nature - simply prepares them for life. <br /><br />Gertrud Fremling<br />Gertrud Fremlingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-37789543701551220622012-11-28T20:37:52.134-08:002012-11-28T20:37:52.134-08:00Well David,
I'm a U of C physics classmate of...Well David,<br /><br />I'm a U of C physics classmate of yours who resents the implications. I also don't "need the money" but, unlike you, apparently, I am sensitive to the plight of those who do.<br /><br />Great that your privileged kids got to enjoy their video games at the expense of so many others less privileged.jimbinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684677214800358793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-5003536885069879452012-11-28T19:25:19.101-08:002012-11-28T19:25:19.101-08:00Jimbino:
Perhaps I would feel more the way you do...Jimbino:<br /><br />Perhaps I would feel more the way you do if more of life had involved doing things I didn't enjoy because I needed the money. As it is, I've mostly managed to support myself doing things I mostly enjoy, so it doesn't seem odd to me that my children did what they needed doing, which mostly consists of educating themselves, mostly in ways they enjoy.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-70790391650630635162012-11-28T18:13:42.687-08:002012-11-28T18:13:42.687-08:00Interesting post.
I wonder if parents would chan...Interesting post. <br /><br />I wonder if parents would change their child-rearing philosophy if, as in the case of my parents, their child rearing weren't subsidized to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year of taxpayer money, or, as in the case of my grandparents, weren't subsidized at all.<br /><br />I look back on a childhood in which I went to work outside the home at 10 years of age, just like my father, on the Chicago Southside. That and hard farming in the summer in Ohio.<br /><br />I don't regret a moment of it, and I wonder how I could begin to tolerate indolent kids playing video games.jimbinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09684677214800358793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-75847828295875863502012-11-28T15:33:02.250-08:002012-11-28T15:33:02.250-08:00I remember Cheaper by the dozen, though I have a f...I remember <i>Cheaper by the dozen</i>, though I have a feeling that I didn't read it in full: perhaps extracts or a condensed version, long ago. A part that stuck in my mind was the father demonstrating that he'd once been a bricklayer.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661031964537092605noreply@blogger.com