tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post780709342707581538..comments2024-03-23T12:05:13.464-07:00Comments on Ideas: Academic Orthodoxy: Official LiesDavid Friedmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-49400855466260489442013-04-16T20:10:30.855-07:002013-04-16T20:10:30.855-07:00Colour perception is very much goverened by cultur...Colour perception is very much goverened by culture, specifically language; indeed our language wires our brains to perceive colours differently. For instance, are pink and red different colours? What about dark blue and sky blue? To English speakers the answers are "obviously" yes and no; but to Russian speakers both distinctions are equally obvious, and in fact native Russian speakers are better able than English speakers to distinguish shades of blue, because they think of dark blue and sky blue as separate colours.Milhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14350874508580081286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-48860755922007872032013-04-06T18:19:25.989-07:002013-04-06T18:19:25.989-07:00The effect of interbreeding is the same as the eff...The effect of interbreeding is the same as the effect of mixing pigments, except that mixing yellow and red produces a hue that has long existed, and the first interbreeding of, for example, Europeans and American Indians produced genotypes that had never existed before. And two brown parents can produce children who are white, brown or black.<br /><br />I'm not convinced that traditional broad racial categories don't mislead more than they reveal. It was commonly believed that sickle cell disease was something that affected blacks very disproportionately. But in the old world it is quite rare in South Africa, but prevalent in Southern Italy, where Malaria was once common.Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-21454523035652566682013-04-06T06:28:36.334-07:002013-04-06T06:28:36.334-07:00Ethnic groups, on the other hand, are like trying ...<i> Ethnic groups, on the other hand, are like trying to nail Jello to the wall. You design a nice rational taxonomy and those crazy Europeans spoil it by sailing about, shipping Africans to the New World, interbreeding promiscuously and also interbreeding. Did I mention the interbreeding?</i><br /><br />This is like Henry Louis Gates' program on PBS, on which he tests celebrities for genetic ancestry. For example, some African American studies professor discovered she was 60% Euro, 5% Asian, and 35% African. So, therefore, race is a social construct and there's no such thing as a Euro population, an Asian population, or an African population! <br /><br />Despite your protestations, this line of reasoning is EXACTLY like saying, "Orange is really just a mixture of red and yellow, so clearly colors are a social construct!" Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-47025290110955946902013-04-05T22:44:40.182-07:002013-04-05T22:44:40.182-07:00On race as a social construct, there are frequent ...On race as a social construct, there are frequent public health advisories on diabetes advising people of certain ancestries that they are more prone to diabetes and should be tested more often and watch their weight.<br /><br />Most of these ancestries were late to the industrial revolution. <br /><br />A genetic ability to put on weight fast was an advantage in subsistence society where food supply was insecure. <br /><br />Moving quickly into a rich society with plenty of food makes these genetic dispositions not such an advantage.<br />Jim Rosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-6914120521995705502013-04-05T21:32:53.363-07:002013-04-05T21:32:53.363-07:001. Actually, colors can't be fully defined in ...1. Actually, colors can't be fully defined in the way you describe. As Edwin Land demonstrated quite a long time ago, the Newtonian analysis of colors does not accurately describe how our color vision works. He demonstrated how it was possible to get what was perceived as a color picture by superimposing, if memory serves me correctly--it was a very old Scientific American article--two images, both pink. <br /><br />2. The effect of interbreeding is the same as the effect of mixing pigments, so that doesn't make race a different sort of thing from color. And people mix pigments all the time--paint stores have special machines for the purpose.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-57132194185179839392013-04-05T19:27:22.928-07:002013-04-05T19:27:22.928-07:00We can and do define colors objectively as either ...We can and do define colors objectively as either parts of the visible spectrum (in the case of saturated colors)or mixes of frequency for unsaturated colors. The pure spectral colors are all common English words and hardly anyone complains that we need to insert a new color between yellow and orange. For more precise distinctions we can use more detailed taxonomies like the Pantone numbering system.<br /><br />Ethnic groups, on the other hand, are like trying to nail Jello to the wall. You design a nice rational taxonomy and those crazy Europeans spoil it by sailing about, shipping Africans to the New World, interbreeding promiscuously and also interbreeding. Did I mention the interbreeding?<br /><br />Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-75456986850737882802013-04-05T16:41:14.640-07:002013-04-05T16:41:14.640-07:00Will writes:
"My point on color is that race...Will writes:<br /><br />"My point on color is that race is not, like color, a fixed property, but fluid and mutable."<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Colors can be and routinely are blended together to give intermediate colors. The definition of color is at least potentially mutable--it isn't clear, for instance, where one draws the line between green and blue, just as there isn't a sharp line between black and white racial classifications.<br /><br />The fact that some people got racial classifications wrong doesn't make race meaningless, nor does the fact that there aren't sharp lines distinguishing races--unless you are willing to claim that color is meaningless as well. David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-78699739793669217262013-04-05T11:48:42.794-07:002013-04-05T11:48:42.794-07:00David:
He also distinguished between the Khoisan,...David:<br /><br />He also distinguished between the Khoisan, other black Africans, and Australian Aborigines, so the ability to draw a distinction does not indicate that he thought they were unrelated. In any case, many 19th c. writers on race grouped the black ethnic groups together, although some did not.<br /><br />My point on color is that race is not, like color, a fixed property, but fluid and mutable.Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-14538353408371795722013-04-05T04:52:25.322-07:002013-04-05T04:52:25.322-07:00if no woman feels herself oppressed, I will take t...<i> if no woman feels herself oppressed, I will take that as plentiful evidence that there is not, in fact, oppression going on. </i><br /><br />@ Rebecca, that's far too logical and simple for the likes of Dan, who enjoy slicing their wrists on Occam's razor.<br /><br />@ Willy <br /><br /><i> Using phenotypes only reproduces the error of classic 19th c. racial theory </i><br /><br />Oh dear! I'll have to inform every biologist on the planet! This whole time they've been using phenotypes as part of their classification schemes; I'll let them know a publisher says it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. Goodness, Darwin was really on the wrong track with that whole finch thing. <br /><br />Phenotypes are much more than physical characteristics. Genotype plus Environment equals Phenotype. So, phenotypes are a pretty good way to figure out the current state of genetic variance and how environment is affecting it. <br /><br /><i>We now know that the "blacks" of South India, the Andaman islands, Melanesia and Australia were all closer genetically to Asia than Africa.</i><br /><br />A gross oversimplification of what anyone in the 19th or early 20th centuries thought, as someone has already pointed out. Hell, I've got a collection of missionary training guides on my shelves, part of my old books collection. Each one that discusses South India and India generally says that Indians--I quote from a Lutheran book--"are part of the white race, though swarthier in color than the Nordics." <br /><br />You must be one of those fellows who also thinks that blacks in the American South were still being lynched en masse in 1964? Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-12614487871095740992013-04-04T19:14:41.346-07:002013-04-04T19:14:41.346-07:00Ben,
"I'm glad to hear that, but you'...Ben,<br /><br />"I'm glad to hear that, but you'd agree that not all women (or even necessarily any of them) would have to feel oppressed for it to nevertheless be the case that they are oppressed."<br /><br />Actually, I would prefer you do not assume what I would agree with. Especially when I do not, in fact, do so. <br /><br />Your statement assumes a limit case wherein women are oppressed, but <i>not a single woman</i> notices. This assumes that the oppressors are sufficiently more capable – brighter, more subtle, etc. - than the oppressed to be able to oppress them without <i>even a single one of them</i> noticing. I find this extremely improbable, both on factual evidence (we have had the opportunity to observe that, in societies that are genuinely oppressive, at least some individuals do notice; how do you think our society got the way it is?), and on grounds of logic; I am unwilling to accept the proposition that women are, frankly, that <i>incapable</i>, and I do not logically see how your statement can be true without it. So no; if no woman feels herself oppressed, I will take that as plentiful evidence that there is not, in fact, oppression going on.<br /><br />As a general rule, I find the viewpoint of “Oh no, you don't understand yourself/your life, let us experts tell you how it <i>really</i> works,” inherently problematic. I recognise that in a few exceptional cases – cases of mental illness, say, or a few situations where you're so involved you don't notice things becoming problematic until someone points it out – people may in fact not be aware of all the facts, and may need outside guidance. I still feel these cases are the exception, not the rule. As a general rule, the people who are actually <i>living</i> their lives will have a certain amount of experience and perspective on those lives that an unrelated person – simply doesn't. <br /><br />As per the article you link – I am sorry, but while it is certainly describes an extremely regrettable state of affairs, I am not sure I would refer to it as evidence of “oppression of women” - though the article chooses to interpret the evidence that way. To throw something unrelated into the mix – the idea that a woman can rape a man has been treated as a joke, just in and of itself. Does that reflect at all a healthier culture? Is what we are dealing with here a situation of "Women are oppressed" – or one of rape (or, put more generally, people's rights to make choices about what they do and do not do with their own bodies) not being taken seriously enough?Rebecca Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-13421352978972763502013-04-04T18:43:20.386-07:002013-04-04T18:43:20.386-07:00Will:
As best I can tell by a little googling, Da...Will:<br /><br />As best I can tell by a little googling, Darwin, at least, distinguished between Australian aborigines and sub-saharan Africans. I don't know whether he thought other dark skinned groups were the same race as sub-saharan Africans or not.<br /><br />Your point about colors and sex implies that one would expect intermediate cases, not that there is nothing for them to be intermediate between--and, of course, it is a point that Darwin discussed, explicitly disagreeing with contemporaries who thought human races were not cross-fertile.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-2230440014832558452013-04-04T17:57:44.506-07:002013-04-04T17:57:44.506-07:00Anonymous:
The race/color analogy would be more e...Anonymous:<br /><br />The race/color analogy would be more effective if colors had a history of having sex with other colors and producing new hues that had never existed before.Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-36876707902272349612013-04-04T17:50:52.131-07:002013-04-04T17:50:52.131-07:00Natural:
Using phenotypes only reproduces the err...Natural:<br /><br />Using phenotypes only reproduces the error of classic 19th c. racial theory: they assumed there was a black race, identifiable by superficial indications like dark skin and other features.<br /><br />We now know that the "blacks" of South India, the Andaman islands, Melanesia and Australia were all closer genetically to Asia than Africa. Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-26222924675509353412013-04-04T15:04:39.018-07:002013-04-04T15:04:39.018-07:00@ Ben Nader, re: your New Statesman link.
I think...@ Ben Nader, re: your New Statesman link.<br /><br />I think a better place to look for an explanation of why males rape females (it happens all over the world you know; it's--shockingly!--not just a Middle America football thing), anyway, I think a better explanation might be found in this excellent little book, "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence":<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-Males-Origins-Human-Violence/dp/0395877431/ref=pd_sim_b_7<br /><br />Biology, Ben. Not culture. <br /><br />Rejoicing in the lamentations of women goes way back. It's <i> old </i> school, Ben! <br /><br />I think people like you need to a) admit that humans are animals, and b) watch more wildlife documentaries. Do these two things, and you'll stop feeling the need to search your soul and write nonsense about "rape culture" or whatever else you feel explains something that doesn't really need explaining, i.e., that humans often act like animals. <br />Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-43870081879071628162013-04-04T14:40:53.100-07:002013-04-04T14:40:53.100-07:00Here's a non-PC nugget buried deeper in Cavall...Here's a non-PC nugget buried deeper in Cavalli-Sforza's work. Here's him commenting on his genetic map:<br /><br />"The color map of the world shows very distinctly the differences that we know exist among the continents: Africans (yellow), Caucasoids (green), Mongoloids, including American Indians (purple), and Australian Aborigines (red). The map does not show well the strong Caucasoid component in northern Africa, but it does show the unity of the other Caucasoids from Europe, and in West, South, and much of Central Asia" (pg 136). <br /><br />Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-47578791661981674332013-04-04T14:35:56.550-07:002013-04-04T14:35:56.550-07:00"The classification into colors has proved to..."The classification into colors has proved to be a futile exercise for reasons that were already clear to Darwin. Colors are still extremely unstable entities in the hands of modern taxonomists, who define from 3 to 60 more colors. To some extent, this latitude depends on the personal preference of taxonomists, who may choose to be 'lumpers' or 'splitters'. Although there is no doubt that there is only one Visible Spectrum, there are clearly no objective reasons for stopping at any particular level of taxonomic color splitting."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-97890132210626472013-04-04T14:33:53.941-07:002013-04-04T14:33:53.941-07:00Take colors on the spectrum, for example. Sophisti...Take colors on the spectrum, for example. Sophisticated treatments of colors understand it as a historically, culturally, politically, ideologically contingent concept that intersects with subjective human experience of, among other things, COLOR. "Color" in point of fact, is not found on the top of any mountain or under any microscope. Wavelength variance may be found under a microscope, but such variance becomes "color" only when it is subsumed within a discourse of power. <br /><br />Or: "Clearly the existence of red and yellow proves there's no such thing as orange!" <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-88602518760697595282013-04-04T14:28:42.161-07:002013-04-04T14:28:42.161-07:00@ Will McClean
Cavalli-Sforza throws out nuggets ...@ Will McClean<br /><br />Cavalli-Sforza throws out nuggets like that to keep the PC police off his back. Look at the cover of his book, for God's sake, especially as regards Africa and everywhere else.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Geography-Human-Genes/dp/0691087504/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1365110885&sr=8-3&keywords=Cavalli-Sforza <br /><br />Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-11891569538848301052013-04-04T14:28:08.013-07:002013-04-04T14:28:08.013-07:00The classification into races has proved to be a f...<i>The classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise for reasons that were already clear to Darwin. Human races are still extremely unstable entities in the hands of modern taxonomists, who define from 3 to 60 more races. To some extent, this latitude depends on the personal preference of taxonomists, who may choose to be 'lumpers' or 'splitters'. Although there is no doubt that there is only one human species, there are clearly no objective reasons for stopping at any particular level of taxonomic splitting. In fact, the analysis we carry out..for the purposes of evolutionary study shows that the level at which we stop our classification is completely arbitrary."</i><br /><br />A perfect example.<br /><br />The classification into types of vehicle has proved to be a futile exercise for reasons that were already clear to Henry Ford. Vehicles are still extremely unstable entities in the hands of modern engineers, who define from 3 to 60 or more kinds of vehicle. Road vehicles, planes and ships. Or, lorries, vans, motorbikes and cars. Or sedan, station wagon, hatchback? Totally arbitrary! To some extent, this latitude depends on the personal preference of the engineers, who may choose to be 'lumpers' or 'splitters'. Although there is no doubt that some things are vehicles and some are not, there are clearly no objective reasons for stopping at any particular level of taxonomic splitting. In fact, the analysis we carry out...for the purposes of <i>Top Gear</i> shows that the level at which we stop our classification is completely arbitrary.<br /><br />A good reason to renounce prejudiced distinction between "different" vehicles?Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-78673723206310504862013-04-04T14:25:28.511-07:002013-04-04T14:25:28.511-07:00Race doesn't exist! Lulz.
http://www.amazon.c...Race doesn't exist! Lulz.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Geography-Human-Genes/dp/0691087504/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top<br /><br />http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007<br /><br />http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/10/evolution-of-cavalli-sforza-part-vi.html<br /><br />http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to#.UV3s3nd4Ido<br /><br />http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2009268868_apmixedracedonors.html?syndication=rss<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/science/studying-recent-human-evolution-at-the-genetic-level.html?hpw&_r=1&<br /><br />IQ isn't heritable! Lulz.<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3182557/<br /><br />This entire thread is a game of semantics. How about instead of "race" we just use "phenotypically varied human populations." And instead of "IQ" we use "cognitive aptitude for problem solving and pattern detection." And instead of "gender" we use . . . well, I don't know about that one. Anyone who thinks that gender differences don't run biologically deep either failed Bio 101 or is addicted to ideology. <br /><br />Mr. Friedman, the patience you have with your commentariat is truly to your credit. I would just post more links directing them to the latest scientific research. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Natural Language Processornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-59940955109821840272013-04-04T13:51:10.708-07:002013-04-04T13:51:10.708-07:00“The classification into races has proved to be a ...“The classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise for reasons that were already clear to Darwin. Human races are still extremely unstable entities in the hands of modern taxonomists, who define from 3 to 60 more races. To some extent, this latitude depends on the personal preference of taxonomists, who may choose to be 'lumpers' or 'splitters'. Although there is no doubt that there is only one human species, there are clearly no objective reasons for stopping at any particular level of taxonomic splitting. In fact, the analysis we carry out..for the purposes of evolutionary study shows that the level at which we stop our classification is completely arbitrary." (Cavalli-Sforza)Will McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685409952186547597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-7070699834197878612013-04-04T13:44:06.713-07:002013-04-04T13:44:06.713-07:00Take race, for example. Sophisticated treatments o...<i>Take race, for example. Sophisticated treatments of race understand it as a historically, culturally, politically, ideologically contingent concept that intersects with subjective human experience of, among other things, color. "Race" in point of fact, is not found on the top of any mountain or under any microscope. Genetic variance may be found under a microscope, but such variance becomes "race" only when it is subsumed within a discourse of power. This is basic stuff, one need not look far on our campus to hear it. To say that the orthodoxy is that is "race is not real" is, evinces perhaps a failure to listen with a sympathetic ear to what is being said.</i><br /><br />This is all true of most categories. "Car" is also an historically and culturally contingent concept that intersects with subjective human experience. Where does "car" stop, and "truck" begin? Does "car" have a necessary and sufficient definition? Given a list of 100 car-like objects, would everyone parse them into exactly the same groups of "car" and "not-car"?<br /><br />Yet few would deny that "car" is a useful distinction.<br /><br />The orthodoxy is that "race" is an especially flawed concept, when I say, for <a href="http://studiolo.cortediurbino.org/races-are-clusters-in-thingspace/" rel="nofollow">definite reasons</a>, it is unexceptionable. Mainstream discourse on race adopts far stricter than normal criteria for classification, which if used consistently would render communication impossible; and also perpetuates outright fallacies.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-72642146547072101682013-04-04T10:16:53.935-07:002013-04-04T10:16:53.935-07:00Tim:
Gender discrimination exists, in both direct...Tim:<br /><br />Gender discrimination exists, in both directions. But the routine claim is that the size of outcome differences measures the effect of discrimination and that the existence of outcome differences in some particular context demonstrates the existence of discrimination in that context.<br /><br />Both of those require assuming away alternative explanations.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-4611920120756666572013-04-04T06:16:56.433-07:002013-04-04T06:16:56.433-07:00David, since we agree that gender discrimination e...David, since we agree that gender discrimination exists, then if we observe differential outcomes then it is likely that discrimination is partly to blame. There is no need to assume that women and men are the same.Tim Lamberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03619533938771249394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-76671990366445889042013-04-04T06:04:15.051-07:002013-04-04T06:04:15.051-07:00Ben:
In light of the Newtown Tragedy, are you goin...Ben:<br />In light of the Newtown Tragedy, are you going to claim that society oppresses first graders as well?Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00152316381300039477noreply@blogger.com