tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post1130172444466194491..comments2024-03-23T12:05:13.464-07:00Comments on Ideas: Are the Amish Anarchists?David Friedmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-18685680280939872512016-02-26T15:27:34.846-08:002016-02-26T15:27:34.846-08:00If America were to become free market anarchist to...If America were to become free market anarchist tomorrow, and the Department of Defense were to go "Poof!", the Amish would NOT become vulnerable to foreign invaders, such as Islamic fundamentalists intent upon imposing Sharia Law. <br /><br />The Amish are part of a Christian oriented culture. <br /><br />Does anyone think Christian militia groups, armed to the teeth, would not come to their defense? <br /><br />Hell, I'm an atheist, and I would probably rush to their defense as a volunteer, out of sympathy for their pacifism. Bevin Chuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03212261042382022326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-11663734117359704802013-12-31T17:42:22.304-08:002013-12-31T17:42:22.304-08:00I wonder if you read the New York Times bestseller...I wonder if you read the New York Times bestseller "Growing up Amish" by Ira Wagler. He speaks a little bit about church rules etc. He also has an excellent blog, in which he often expresses his anarchist views. http://www.irawagler.com/ Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11295638033249841126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-14395417246255452522013-01-14T10:38:28.894-08:002013-01-14T10:38:28.894-08:00The states of California and Illinois are bankrupt...The states of California and Illinois are bankrupt beyond salvation, but they are just the tip of the iceberg. Many municipalities are on the verge of defaulting on their bonds. Several million retirees have invested their life savings in these “super safe” bonds and depend on them for income. The federal government is itself bankrupt and in no condition to bail out all the rest of the sinners. It is not just the retirees who will suffer. Other millions of municipal and state employees will have to have their wages and pensions drastically reduced or be furloughed. Many jobs will never return. Unions will call strikes and marches on capitols, some of which will become violent and require calling out the National Guard of that state. Guards need to be paid too—somehow.<br />Technology will advance in certain job categories so rapidly as to obsolete all prior technologies of systems in place in large industries, thus causing intractable dislocations across multiple labor categories. For example, after a huge effort to update its infrastructure the entire electrical distribution system might become obsolete. Electricity might be projected over long distances without wires directly to rooftop-receiving antennas (rectennas). Developments may even be superseded before they are fully implemented. If alternative technologies advance as projected, the so-called “Hydrogen Economy” may become 85 percent obsolete before its infrastructure is completed. In the future, even ships and airplanes may run on projected electricity.<br /><br />You can buy this book now on any of the following websites:<br /><br />Strategic Book Publishing Rights Agency: http://sbpra.com/HenryMarkant/ <br /><br />Amazon Books: http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Crises-Their-Solutions-ebook/dp/B00A2WZ4CK/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357573018&sr=1-1&keywords=coming+crisis+henry+markant <br /><br />Barnes and Noble Books: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/coming-crises-and-their-solutions-henry-markant/1113749628?ean=2940015922875<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-8447951092573292092011-11-18T06:45:51.760-08:002011-11-18T06:45:51.760-08:00"you said above that the highest Amish author..."you said above that the highest Amish authority is the congregation, "<br /><br />Correct. Having read more on the Amish since making the post, I should add that in the oldest of the large settlements (Lancaster County), the bishops of the congregations meet together twice a year. That meeting has no formal authority, but the opinion of the older bishops has a good deal of weight, so one might regard the meeting as a step in the direction of adding another layer of government above the congregation.<br /><br />"and that different congretations largely manage the relationships between them by physical separation."<br /><br />I don't think I said that. The relation between congregations is managed by affiliation--congregations whose rules are sufficiently similar are "in fellowship with" each other.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-85660389857592704052011-11-16T07:10:17.224-08:002011-11-16T07:10:17.224-08:00"2. The individual Amish district has fewer t..."2. The individual Amish district has fewer than a thousand people, but the "governing structure" is a decentralized collection of districts, with a combined population in the hundreds of thousands. The fact that it works without any central authority is interesting."<br /><br />This is starting to look like special pleading - you said above that the highest Amish authority is the congregation, and that different congretations largely manage the relationships between them by physical separation. A quick wiki check suggests that the largest town in Amish country is Millersburg OH, population 3326. And Millersburg is not exactly an Amish community - the photo of downtown on wikipedia shows cars, not Amish buggies. <br /><br />This is Shasta County again. Small rural communities which don't need to organise for protection against foreign invaders/brigands can self-govern informally. Cities need state-like organisation.Jonathan Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-6967256680099230452011-10-27T08:06:23.394-07:002011-10-27T08:06:23.394-07:00"There's nothing more boring than studyin..."There's nothing more boring than studying governing structures that work over communities of < 1000 people, because almost everything works."<br /><br />1. I don't think that is correct. In particular, communes well below that size seem to fail unless there is a strong charismatic leader and/or a shared ideology. Consider, for example, the eventual fate of the Oneida commune.<br /><br />2. The individual Amish district has fewer than a thousand people, but the "governing structure" is a decentralized collection of districts, with a combined population in the hundreds of thousands. The fact that it works without any central authority is interesting.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-85819342435038806822011-10-23T18:40:48.270-07:002011-10-23T18:40:48.270-07:00There's nothing more boring than studying gove...There's nothing more boring than studying governing structures that work over communities of < 1000 people, because almost everything works.Andy Znoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-88857305243705630722011-10-20T19:43:34.671-07:002011-10-20T19:43:34.671-07:00Great article!Great article!James Schwartzhttp://literaryparty.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-4023922266727123532011-10-20T16:35:46.962-07:002011-10-20T16:35:46.962-07:00"But others are cooperating with law enforcem..."But others are cooperating with law enforcement."<br /><br />It's important to realize that there is no authority over the Amish as a group; the highest level of authority is the congregation, typically of 30 to 40 households. The Ordnung, the rules, vary in detail from congregation to congregation, and sometimes by quite a lot.<br /><br />The refusal to cooperate with law enforcement is a pretty widespread rule, but it isn't all that surprising that there are some Amish who, under extreme provocation, don't follow it.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-70805921777705246712011-10-20T09:08:58.000-07:002011-10-20T09:08:58.000-07:00Actually, when crimes against them are severe enog...Actually, when crimes against them are severe enoght, the Amish are quite quick to call the authorities, as the recent de-bearding incidents indicate, and crimes against the Amish committed by non-Amish are almost always reported to authorities. It's important to note that the Amish believe that State authority should exist, and is ordained by God (as stated by Paul in Romans), they just believe that they should not be a part of it, and that within their own community they should live by their own law. The Amish are not exactly pacifists in the way that most Liberal-Christian pacifists are. It's also interesting to remember that the theological ancestors of the Amish, the Anabaptists, were responsible for near-deranged levels of violence in Reformation-era Europe. An odd people, to say the least.<br /><br />TschaferAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-69657669115738826112011-10-19T21:30:54.823-07:002011-10-19T21:30:54.823-07:00"Their lack of technology use also allows the..."Their lack of technology use also allows them to be self sufficient,"<br /><br />I think you are greatly exaggerating how low tech the Amish are. Buggy shells are sometimes made of fiberglass--do you think they produce the fiberglass and resin themselves? The modern agricultural machinery, such as balers, that they use on wagons pulled by horses? The batteries they use? The gas powered refrigerators some of them use? Amish congregations vary a good deal, but the median use of technology is still pretty substantial.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-81942504716744184222011-10-19T21:28:19.368-07:002011-10-19T21:28:19.368-07:00"The "choice" not to comply with th..."The "choice" not to comply with the rules (established and enforced by a male patriarch) is a choice to sever all family and social relationships. Never see your father and mother; sever relationships with your siblings, friends, cousins; etc."<br /><br />I do not believe that is correct. You are confusing the consequence of not joining the congregation--not swearing to observe the Ordnung and not being baptized--with the consequences of joining and then violating the Ordnung.<br /><br />As best I can tell from fairly extensive reading of the literature on the Amish, a grown child who chooses not to swear to observe the Ordnung is not banned, is not cut of from his family, any more than a non-Amish individual would be. Banning (Meidung) would only apply to someone who joined the congregation and then failed to follow its rules.<br /><br />The Amish are Anabaptists--one of their central principles is adult baptism, so that someone is only a member of the congregation bound by its ordnung after he, as an adult, chooses to be.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-87586131873560255962011-10-19T20:29:10.795-07:002011-10-19T20:29:10.795-07:00I think that you don't need to look outside If...I think that you don't need to look outside If the Amish truly were independent of US laws, there would be nothing preventing someone from simply killing them and taking their land/goods. So even though the Amish may not make use of laws or law enforcement, outsiders are still bound and ultimately limited by the laws in the actions they take toward these communities. <br /><br />Second the Amish communities also tend to be fairly small and operate at a relatively low level of technology compared to that enjoyed by the society around them. The size of their community allows for much stronger social cohesion. Their lack of technology use also allows them to be self sufficient, whereas modern technology forces very very large networks of people to rely upon each other.<br /><br />Consider the computer you typed your post on, your ISP, and blogger, and ask yourself if you, or any of these same parties even operate in the same state, or even country, and realize that in order for you to do your business you rely upon many people whom you have no social contact with at all. <br /><br />Or to put it another when when social bonds are strong formal rules can be weak, as there is a strong basis for an informal sort of order to form through personal interaction. But when social bonds become very weak, formal rules are necessary since any informal rules cannot possibly be shared or enforced between people who likely have not and will never meet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-69676904637756237612011-10-19T17:44:46.312-07:002011-10-19T17:44:46.312-07:00I question whether membership in an Amish communit...I question whether membership in an Amish community can be described as "voluntary," in a normatively meaningful sense. Amish families raise their children in an extremely close-knit (and small) social structure where family and the immediate social/religious community are all-important and all-encompassing. The "choice" not to comply with the rules (established and enforced by a male patriarch) is a choice to sever all family and social relationships. Never see your father and mother; sever relationships with your siblings, friends, cousins; etc. Thus we see very low levels of "choosing" to leave Amish groups, which contrasts rather dramatically with very low levels of non-Amish adults choosing (under conditions that are indeed voluntary) to join those groups.<br /><br />In some ways the "choice" is even more coerced than a citizen's "choice" to remain in the jurisdiction: I could choose to move to Canada and thereby remove myself from U.S. laws, but even then I could phone and visit my family and other folks most important to me!Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08905915172322364963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-51167601748582357742011-10-19T16:41:40.716-07:002011-10-19T16:41:40.716-07:00"Off hand, the only significant benefit I can..."Off hand, the only significant benefit I can think of that they get is protection against foreign invasion."<br /><br />I'd throw in the roads they use, along with environmental protections. <br /><br />One could also make the case that while they don't directly use law enforcement, they benefit from its mere existence; the fact that police exist deters crime.Sam Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03059524216536846003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-78446994951668208282011-10-17T14:16:44.672-07:002011-10-17T14:16:44.672-07:00http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/hair-cutting-...http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/hair-cutting-attacks-stir-fear-in-amish-ohio.html<br /><br />"The prosecutions are unusual because the Amish do not believe in revenge and prefer to settle disputes internally. Barbara and Martin Miller have refused to testify even though they have received further threats, telling officers that they will “turn the other cheek.”<br /><br />But others are cooperating with law enforcement.<br /><br />“We want to see these people behind bars so this cult can be torn apart before it ends up like most of them do,” said Myron Miller, who lives in Mechanicstown. Like many Amish in the region, he and his wife regard Mr. Mullet as a danger to the wider community and above all to the 120 people, including many of Mr. Mullet’s grandchildren, who are growing up under his sway."Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914987029848859980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-75291703893714353452011-10-17T06:01:58.797-07:002011-10-17T06:01:58.797-07:001) The Amish are embedded in a wider society which...1) The Amish are embedded in a wider society which provides an escape valve for their malcontents. By constrast, an independent Amish "ancap" society's attempt to maintain its sole coercive enforcement method (that is, shunning - in my view rather nasty and unchristian practise) would lead to extreme violence from the excluded, who would then have nothing to lose from preying on the rest.<br /><br />2) The Amish (and similar groups) currently <i>do</i> benefit from external law-enforcement - viz. the recent debearding feud.Paul Birchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-27884641986176226552011-10-16T18:14:53.939-07:002011-10-16T18:14:53.939-07:00It's hard to see how millions of other folks a...It's hard to see how millions of other folks aren't also anarchists given the rules for inclusion in the category.<br /><br />Assuming these are the rules.Bravin Neffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502038136426007628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-58987730664123608532011-10-16T11:04:55.340-07:002011-10-16T11:04:55.340-07:00Read your blog post about the Amish, thought you m...Read your blog post about the Amish, thought you might find this book very interesting.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Art-Not-Being-Governed-Anarchist/dp/0300152280<br /><br />He looks at history from the point of view of the non-state associated peoples of southeast asia, and finds<br />a lot of their adaptation is to evade governments and taxation. As in make a king or other state have to work<br />too hard collecting taxes to make it worth the bother.<br /><br />Some of these people (speaking of tribes/ethnic groups/language groups) were literate, then dropped literacy it<br />seems as a way to evade taxes. It makes it much harder for the tax man to know what you own if you have no written records.montestruchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01605211615360960860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-42492690594595180242011-10-16T06:04:16.397-07:002011-10-16T06:04:16.397-07:00I guess you have medieval surveys to back that up?...I guess you have medieval surveys to back that up?joeftanseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-89320323195388441702011-10-16T00:26:41.767-07:002011-10-16T00:26:41.767-07:00Dr. Friedman,
the problem, as you note yourself, i...Dr. Friedman,<br />the problem, as you note yourself, is that they are still under the authority of another legal entity and are thus not sovereign. The Amish just have a bunch of internal rules that USG doesn't bother interfering with. The same goes for, say, a sports club or historically more common, a family. <br />For the Amish to become truly sovereign, they would have to be able to defend themselves against USG. The very fact that they still pay taxes suggests that they can't, with the pertinent question being: Should they decide to try, would they be able to keep up the voluntary elements that make them "anarchical" in the first place?<br /><br />Miko,<br />it may just be a minor point, but you might want to read up on military history if you really think the lack of a "centralized coercive mechanism" protects a population from invasion. Just pick any old book and keep an eye out for the catchy word "terror". You'll be surprised how happily people become well behaved and tax paying subjects of Lord Poopypoops when the alternative is getting raped and killed.ThomasTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-44492007688722201842011-10-15T21:08:39.207-07:002011-10-15T21:08:39.207-07:00Americans who want to do harm can already do harm....Americans who want to do harm can already do harm. Its called attacking a random person at 3 in the morning when no one's around. We overestimate the extent to which conventional law enforcement can prevent psychopathic crime.<br /><br />But if you did murder a bunch of Amish, would they report you? They're pacifists... and reporting you would be authorizing violence against you.joeftanseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-53291703408689043142011-10-15T15:20:06.924-07:002011-10-15T15:20:06.924-07:00Even if they're unwilling to report the crimes...Even if they're unwilling to report the crimes themselves, the laws of the United States (or Pennsylvania, or wherever) still protect them (to a significant degree, I suspect) from Americans (or Pennsylvanians, or whoever) who'd want to do them harm.<br /><br />If I murdered and robbed my way through an Amish community, there'd almost certainly be penal consequences from the relevant governments.Joelhttp://joelgrus.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-35282241120261872392011-10-15T13:30:26.613-07:002011-10-15T13:30:26.613-07:00@Albert Ling: I'd probably be offended by your...@Albert Ling: I'd probably be offended by your "wanting to walk around naked using drugs and general "indecencies," too...But you're safe from my attempting to outlaw it! :D LOL<br /><br />Elsaelsanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-45127807468185136872011-10-15T12:30:45.923-07:002011-10-15T12:30:45.923-07:00This is my only doubt that private law would work....This is my only doubt that private law would work. If you mix several cultures together that have different values, then I can't see things running smoothly! Religion is mainly to blame, since it makes people interfere in other peoples transactions (prostitution, drugs, abortion, organ donation... even tech in the case of amish)<br /><br />Put me living side by side a extreme muslim, and I wont get offended by his praying and chanting, but he will be offended by my wanting to walk around naked using drugs and general "indecencies"!Albert Linghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17095951054791059946noreply@blogger.com