tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post7752764614838338412..comments2024-03-23T12:05:13.464-07:00Comments on Ideas: The Origin of the Law of Torture: A Cautionary TaleDavid Friedmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-18783298571240318442016-07-06T23:07:02.178-07:002016-07-06T23:07:02.178-07:00There were Christians amongst the Icelandic popula...There were Christians amongst the Icelandic population from the early settlement, and their percentage of the population only grew over time -- of course they and their religion influenced the direction the culture, and the laws reflecting that culture, developed.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-71364506702845971102016-07-06T18:01:25.117-07:002016-07-06T18:01:25.117-07:00+llíon
According to the Wikipedia sources yes. But...+llíon<br />According to the Wikipedia sources yes. But in reality, maybe there was some influence of Christianity in the abolition of trial by combat. This might be a good place for further research.The X Plexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130087125320939452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-34241288088508023032016-07-03T19:09:59.132-07:002016-07-03T19:09:59.132-07:00https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral<br /> <br />This happened long after Christianization of vikings and germanic peoples. I believe people tend to adapt to the "territory" and get by, and later, when they grow tired of the same old thing, they gladly welcome new customs in these little social hobbies known as "law", "trials", "torture" and "punishment".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-13003661686145785812016-06-30T18:44:05.662-07:002016-06-30T18:44:05.662-07:00^ Nothing? Nothing at all?^ Nothing? Nothing at all?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-58387522995143407972016-06-30T17:44:12.383-07:002016-06-30T17:44:12.383-07:00Trial by combat was abolished while Iceland transi...Trial by combat was abolished while Iceland transitioned to Christianity, but it had nothing to do with Christianity.<br /><br />"Many sagas describe berserks who abused holmgang in this way. In large part due to such practices, holmgangs were outlawed in Iceland in 1006, as a result of the duel between Gunnlaugr Ormstunga and Hrafn Önundarson,[2] and in Norway in 1014."<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmgang#The_Holmgang_in_history<br /><br />"Iceland was Christianized in approximately 1000 AD. In Icelandic, this event is known as the kristnitaka (literally, "the taking of Christianity")."<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_IcelandThe X Plexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130087125320939452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-47759717498889523992016-06-27T07:27:07.187-07:002016-06-27T07:27:07.187-07:00Anonymous:
I think you have it backwards. If Lees...Anonymous:<br /><br />I think you have it backwards. If Leeson is correct, most people made it through the ordeal.<br /><br />Ilíon: I'm not certain, but I think Iceland abolished trial by combat before it went Christian.David Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543763515095867595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-25674012793142246872016-06-22T11:34:02.062-07:002016-06-22T11:34:02.062-07:00I would assume that it is fairly obvious after a w...I would assume that it is fairly obvious after a while that no one is ever saved by God. How come no one noticed? Or perhaps the serious offences where an ordeal is in place were rare enough that it wouldn't be clear? But still, they were at it for hundreds of years during which time exactly 0 people made it through the ordeal?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-6648411447967351992016-06-17T17:40:16.831-07:002016-06-17T17:40:16.831-07:00Saturday Night Live covered this back in 1978:
ht...Saturday Night Live covered this back in 1978:<br /><br />http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78dyork.phtml<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-79773051561535764122016-06-17T09:11:00.264-07:002016-06-17T09:11:00.264-07:00"In the early Middle Ages, they had a solutio..."<i>In the early Middle Ages, they had a solution–let God judge. A defendant could be subjected to an ordeal, such as plunging his hand into boiling water, carrying a red hot iron, being dumped bound into water. Various passages in the Bible were interpreted to imply that God would reveal guilt (hand injured or body sank) or innocence (not injured, floated). Since God was omniscient, it was an approach that guaranteed a correct verdict.</i>"<br /><br />It should be kept in mind that the "ordeal" and the "trial by combat" of the early Middle Ages entered Western legal theory because our civilization was at that time being rebuilt almost from the ground up after having been swamped by Germanic barbarian conquerors who were, at best, demi-Christianized.<br /><br />"<i>The use of ordeals was eventually abandoned on theological grounds. A more careful examination of the biblical passages found little support for it, and it could be viewed as an attempt by humans to compel God to serve them, religiously dubious.</i>"<br /><br />Or, in other words, once the Germanic conquerors were more than demi-Christianized, once their cultures were <i>informed</i> by Christianity, those cultures began to be re-formed, and the barbaric elements which were in conflict with Christianity began to be eliminated.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-29680484274570179882016-06-16T18:48:58.639-07:002016-06-16T18:48:58.639-07:00The current criminal reform push seems to be on th...The current criminal reform push seems to be on the side of regulating away the police/prosecutor conduct that yields false confessions/coercive plea bargains. This analysis would be important with respect to the potential flooding of the system with longer prosecutorial efforts. That potential, of course, rests in part on prosecutors and police continuing to arrest and prosecute at such high rates. <br /><br />Do you have any thoughts as to whether the rates of prosecution would drop if the confession (implicit torture) method is regulated as current criminal reform advocates hope? My inclination is no but primarily because I'd imagine other methods of coercion to be employed after first-wave regulatory reforms protecting criminal defendants are adopted--which is a different argument. The obvious alternate path is to make less conduct criminal in the first place. Nicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-4205897659643032652016-06-14T13:03:06.997-07:002016-06-14T13:03:06.997-07:00I am sure your read a lot about law and torture in...I am sure your read a lot about law and torture in the middle ages, but if you know to read some german you shouldn't miss the paper of Johannes Fried:<br />Wille, Freiwilligkeit und Geständnis um 1300. Zur Beurteilung des letzten Templer-Großmeisters Jacques de Molay, in: Historisches Jahrbuch 105 (1985), S. 388–425.<br />It's great scholarship and a thrilling read (torture as the means "to set free" the mind of the defendant), based on a thorough examination and knowledge of the law of the church as the foundation of the practice of "torture".<br />Kurt Droffenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-21901632422925604052016-06-11T11:46:47.456-07:002016-06-11T11:46:47.456-07:00Hi. I haven't commented here before.
Does any...Hi. I haven't commented here before.<br /><br />Does anybody think that having a longer trial violates a person's right to a fair a speedy trial? <br /><br /> read on this blog http://gunsandbutter.blogspot.com/2012/01/criminal-law-how-long-does-criminal.html that, "This phase is where the case is argued by the prosecutor and the defendant's attorney in front of a jury and the case is decided in favor of the prosecution or the defense. This portion of the process usually takes about a total of 4 days to 2 weeks. In extremely difficult cases it may take a few months." <br /><br />The next phase as it says, "The next phase in both felony and misdemeanor cases is the Pre-Sentencing Investigation phase. This part of the trial process usually takes 1 to 12 months after the conviction to be completed." It continues, "The sentencing phase is the final part of the trial process. <br /><br />This usually occurs between 1 and 12 months after conviction." These could be considered lengthy trials and could constitute a violation of the 6th amendment, which states, "in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy trial."The X Plexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05130087125320939452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-32327215936934399052016-06-10T08:46:14.849-07:002016-06-10T08:46:14.849-07:00Interesting. Thanks for posting this.Interesting. Thanks for posting this.Lairdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19727420.post-18813763471499245522016-06-08T15:10:40.286-07:002016-06-08T15:10:40.286-07:00Safe to say, if all felonies went to trial they wo...Safe to say, if all felonies went to trial they would not last an average of 7 days. Cases that go to trial today are weighted toward the complex and serious.<br />Maxnoreply@blogger.com